Curse

draxynnic · Nov 16, 2009, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Haine,

There's an important piece of relativism to consider when someone says "such-and-such-a-profession-is-no-good-in-PvE":

It's possible to succeed with a crappy build. When people say Mesmers are bad, they're not saying you can't PvE with a Mesmer. Instead, what they're really saying is that Mesmers are bad compared to pretty much everything else - and that is almost self-evident when you look at the powerful builds out there. In no particular order:

Warriors have DS-spamming, Earthshaker, Warrior's Endurance, and Hundred Blades-based builds.

Necromancers have minion masters, a couple of flavours of curses builds, and the N/Rt healer.

Paragons have the Imbagon build.

Assassins have permasins, critscythe, and Death Blossom-based builds.

Monks will, of course, always be desired.

Ritualists can spiritspam, and can fall back to serving as a healer when there aren't enough Monks around.

Rangers have Barrage, and to a lesser extent, Broad Head Arrow.

Elementalists are low on the totem pole as such (although the Battle Standard of Honour helps), but can be quite effective as Ether Renewal monks.

Mesmers, however, basically have the builds that have already been described above by other posters - the mandragor-in-a-can build and the asssassin-spamming build. The former can, in principle, be done by a Necromancer, but Necromancers generally have better things to do. The latter is in fact very similar to the Assassin's Promise-based Necromancer build - the difference being that the Mesmer can summon more assassins, but the Necromancer's assassins are going to be aimed at a MoP victim and are likely to do considerably more damage to a clumped group. Worse, the Necromancer assassin summoner actually largely still behaves like a Necromancer, while for the Mesmer, the Mesmer skills are basically only there to support spamming PvE skills and as filler when the PvE skills aren't available to spam.

Some people still cling to Visions of Regret. If you ask me, it was overrated before the nerf (Spiteful Spirit was better for most situations). Now, it has the problem of antisynergising with pretty much anything else a Mesmer can do - another hex will half the effect of the elite, and an interrupt will mean the elite doesn't trigger. I guess the point is to wear down the off targets, but there are better ways of doing that. Frankly, I've often suspected that the only reason you don't see VoR on other professions more often than on Mesmers is that the likely candidates have much better options for their elite slots.

I've seen Shared Burden put forward as well. It's a worthy possibility, although it has some antisynergistic tendencies on its own, but the nonelite skills the Mesmer has to back it up are a little lacklustre in the hands of player in Hard Mode. To be honest, though, it's not something I've played with myself, so I'm not sure how well it works. Pretty sure, though, that if it really has as effective as any of the true power builds, we would have heard more of it by now.

Now, for heroes, Mesmers do work well - heroes don't have access to the PvE skills that leverage so many of the 'superbuilds' and don't have the right AI for others, but their AI reflexes is great for some of those powerful interrupts that would go to waste in the hands of a Hard Mode player facing even a small amount of latency.

As I said at the start... it's possible to get through most of the game with a less powerful build, especially if you have a friend or hero or two running a power build at your side. However, in the really hard zones, where you're really looking to wring every advantage you can get... the Mesmer has little to offer apart from the assassin summoner and the canned mandragor - and I don't know about anyone else, but that's not what attracted me to the profession back in 2004. (No, that's not a typo.)

(Idly, for the record, Cry of Pain never really helped here - it was used at least as much if not more on E/Mes and N/Mes than Mesmer primaries.)

Daesu · Nov 16, 2009, 08:36 AM // 08:36

If I disclose what my mesmer is using for PvE, some people would complain that it is not "mesmer-ish". But the fact is, the most powerful skills are still the PvE skills and even for the necro, this is also the case only that the necro has better energy management.

Having said that, this is what my mesmer uses with discord team:

[build prof=Me/A fas=3 ins=12 dead=12][Assassin's Promise]["You Move Like a Dwarf!"][Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support]["Finish Him!"][Enduring Toxin][Inspired Hex][Drain Enchantment][Ether Signet][/build]

Notice that the inspiration skills are mostly for energy to spam the AP+PvE skills combo and yes I find this to be effective.

smilingscar · Nov 16, 2009, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Now, for heroes, Mesmers do work well - heroes don't have access to the PvE skills that leverage so many of the 'superbuilds' and don't have the right AI for others, but their AI reflexes is great for some of those powerful interrupts that would go to waste in the hands of a Hard Mode player facing even a small amount of latency.

I know people always say heroes rock at interrupting, but it never seems to me like they use them as often as they could, and I've seen Gwen miss her fair share of p-drains in HM...Has anyone ever tested their accuracy statistically?

That said, I'm one of those who clings to VoR. I also think that Me/N is one of the more synergistic primary/secondary combos in the game. I'd rather play a mesmer with enfeebling blood than a curses necro any day.

Me/N
Fast casting : 8+1=9
Domination: 12+1+1=14
Inspiration: 8+1=9
Curses: 5ish?

Enfeebling Blood
Necrosis
VoR
CoP
Power Drain
Optional pve skill
Optional skill
Res Sig

I like to run Pain inverter or tryptofan sig in the optional pve slot. The other skill depends on the area, but I've run guilt, empathy, ether feast, and drain enchantment before.

Chthon · Nov 16, 2009, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Haine,

There's an important piece of relativism to consider when someone says "such-and-such-a-profession-is-no-good-in-PvE":

It's possible to succeed with a crappy build. When people say Mesmers are bad, they're not saying you can't PvE with a Mesmer. Instead, what they're really saying is that Mesmers are bad compared to pretty much everything else - and that is almost self-evident when you look at the powerful builds out there. In no particular order...

...

As I said at the start... it's possible to get through most of the game with a less powerful build, especially if you have a friend or hero or two running a power build at your side. However, in the really hard zones, where you're really looking to wring every advantage you can get... the Mesmer has little to offer apart from the assassin summoner and the canned mandragor - and I don't know about anyone else, but that's not what attracted me to the profession back in 2004. (No, that's not a typo.)

The above should be required reading for anyone posting in the mesmer forums.

Quote:

(Idly, for the record, Cry of Pain never really helped here - it was used at least as much if not more on E/Mes and N/Mes than Mesmer primaries.)

Primary mesmers were the only ones who could take on an assassin secondary and go AP-AE-CoP. It was much more powerful than X/Me and did not require the rest of the team to gimp itself with a tank-n-spank setup in order to work. Sadly, that's all water under the bridge now....

The Josip · Nov 16, 2009, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Primary mesmers were the only ones who could take on an assassin secondary and go AP-AE-CoP. It was much more powerful than X/Me and did not require the rest of the team to gimp itself with a tank-n-spank setup in order to work. Sadly, that's all water under the bridge now....

Replacing CoP with EVAS works great.

draxynnic · Nov 17, 2009, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Replacing CoP with EVAS works great.

Heck, before the CoP nerf, I used both - and usually it was EVAS that got echoed rather than CoP. The nerf actually didn't seem to weaken the build overly much once I slotted YMLaD (or sometimes EVSS, especially against Charr) in place of CoP.

Admittedly, though, I was never in a cryway group - I imagine ten or so CoPs going off in quick succession do stack together more effectively then YMLaD or EVSS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smilingscar

I know people always say heroes rock at interrupting, but it never seems to me like they use them as often as they could, and I've seen Gwen miss her fair share of p-drains in HM...Has anyone ever tested their accuracy statistically?

They're not perfect, but they certainly appear to be considerably better than all but very good Mesmer players with very good connections. Their prioritising leaves a little to be desired (and I'd be curious as to how many of the misses they do make are because they were trying to interrupt something that was uninterruptable), but when you have them throwing something like CoF, Tease, or Power Block, often all you really care about is that they get something. Unless I've misunderstood what I read, they were a large part of the reason why heroes got removed from PvP.

Cuilan · Nov 17, 2009, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Now, it has the problem of antisynergising with pretty much anything else a Mesmer can do - another hex will half the effect of the elite

I run VoR on a hex build and have not had that problem.

I've found the "Me/A AP Illusion Mes" which doesn't rely on PvE skills to do the actual damage to be good. "Me/N Generic QQ Bar" delivers max degen and very fast Necrosis.

I've also healed with my mesmer in hard mode.

Daesu · Nov 17, 2009, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I run VoR on a hex build and have not had that problem.

I've found the "Me/A AP Illusion Mes" which doesn't rely on PvE skills to do the actual damage to be good. "Me/N Generic QQ Bar" delivers max degen and very fast Necrosis.

I have tried all these builds, they are ok but not fantastic. Biggest issue I have about spamming necrosis is energy management.

maxxfury · Nov 18, 2009, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

. Biggest issue I have about spamming necrosis is energy management.

With lyssa's aura, or drain delusion+frag you can spam necrosis till the cows come home..but i dont like it so much..

Either way works and gives you more than enough energy to spam necrosis and power the rest of your bar almost on recharge. Not my fave bar's to run either tho and not as effective as id have hoped for

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I run VoR on a hex build and have not had that problem.

The fact that if you have Vor with ANY other mesmer hex, Vor's damage is cut in half

sucks majorly..

Daesu · Nov 18, 2009, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

With lyssa's aura, or drain delusion+frag you can spam necrosis till the cows come home..but i dont like it so much..

Either way works and gives you more than enough energy to spam necrosis and power the rest of your bar almost on recharge. Not my fave bar's to run either tho and not as effective as id have hoped for

An elite that doesn't do any other thing besides energy regen (not even going to consider enchant removal) and drain delusion removes a mesmer hex that you have taken time and energy to cast in the first place.

maxxfury · Nov 18, 2009, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Never been a big fan of lyssa's my self either

Much rather take AP

Dont forget though that Fragility is Aoe now, and you can pull off one of the free adjacent ones with Drain delusions. The bonus of running MOR as elite lets you do it more often( like every 9 seconds, not counting the hrt of your weapons mods)

Frag + drain delusions is a pretty solid option for more than just spamming necrosis/cop, it fits nicely with a canned mandragor bar too.

draxynnic · Nov 18, 2009, 05:09 AM // 05:09

To play Devil's Advocate, there are Mesmer hexes that reward premature removal, and energy regaining elites can be worth it if what you really need is more energy to fuel the rest of your bar. And it's not like the Mesmer is spoiled for choice when it comes to great elites.

Cuilan · Nov 18, 2009, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

The fact that if you have Vor with ANY other mesmer hex, Vor's damage is cut in half

sucks majorly..

Which is why I don't hex VoRed enemies...

Daesu · Nov 18, 2009, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

To play Devil's Advocate, there are Mesmer hexes that reward premature removal, and energy regaining elites can be worth it if what you really need is more energy to fuel the rest of your bar. And it's not like the Mesmer is spoiled for choice when it comes to great elites.

Yeah well, there is always AP which I find to be more powerful than Lyssa's Aura. Agree that Drain/Shatter Delusions synergize with some mesmer hexes but when you are casting through those, you have to stop your necrosis spam chain, so they dont really synergize well with necrosis. But workable.

Like many well known mesmer builds these would work well enough in HM, but nothing fantastic.

maxxfury · Nov 18, 2009, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Yeah well, there is always AP which I find to be more powerful than Lyssa's Aura

Alas with Ap you cant spam necrosis.

That been the main reason i VERY rarely run necrosis and dont have too much love for the bars, AP <3 (and not for discord before any suggests that :P)

Daesu · Nov 19, 2009, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Alas with Ap you cant spam necrosis.

That been the main reason i VERY rarely run necrosis and dont have too much love for the bars, AP <3 (and not for discord before any suggests that :P)

Yes, I dont use necrosis nowadays too, dont really like it as it promotes too much of a tank and spank.

With AP+YMLAD+EVAS+FH, I can interrupt, conjure a melee, snare, and have my skills recharged all at the same time.

draxynnic · Nov 19, 2009, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Alas with Ap you cant spam necrosis.

That been the main reason i VERY rarely run necrosis and dont have too much love for the bars, AP <3 (and not for discord before any suggests that :P)

Aye. AP is generally the preferred option unless you're using a non-Assassin secondary (in which case AP won't be available) or you're using a build where the recharge actually doesn't help all that much (although I can't think of any such that are close to top-tier).

Tenebrae · Nov 19, 2009, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Yes, I dont use necrosis nowadays too, dont really like it as it promotes too much of a tank and spank.

With AP+YMLAD+EVAS+FH, I can interrupt, conjure a melee, snare, and have my skills recharged all at the same time.

Yeh , Necrosis and Lyssa Aura works great but is pretty much a button smasher. About second line , maybe is my english but what does "conjure a melee" means ?

maxxfury · Nov 19, 2009, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Yeh , Necrosis and Lyssa Aura works great but is pretty much a button smasher. About second line , maybe is my english but what does "conjure a melee" means ?

Conjure a melee = spawn a vanguard sin ^ unless im very much mistaken, giving you another frontliner for free

Daesu · Nov 19, 2009, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Conjure a melee = spawn a vanguard sin ^ unless im very much mistaken, giving you another frontliner for free

Correct. Which is nice if you are being targeted by a warrior monster, for example. YMLAD is a KD+cripple, plus you get another KD from EVAS's Iron Palm. And of course you get nice armor ignoring damages too, especially for FH which throws in a deep wound.